Al

iucounu @iucounu.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 16:20 UTC

it’s all kicking off

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 19:18 UTC

I’m saying that changing party affiliation is a criteria that i think should prompt the process. Especially given how FPTP elections operate in this country with parties on the ballot paper.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 19:12 UTC

I mean the mechanics of when it can be applied is a debate in itself.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 19:10 UTC

You’re inventing bizarre consequences to sneer it.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 19:03 UTC

And you do not need to be „the best person for the job“ 🤷

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 19:01 UTC

🤷 If you keep pretending i said something other than what i said to sneer at it, I’m not sure i’m the one being dumb here.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:58 UTC

And I’m talking about giving their constituents the capacity to recall them if they do not feel they are representing them.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:52 UTC

I’m being specific about the constituent level as well. And the system used to select representation under the current system.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:50 UTC

If they make choices that aren’t in line with the agenda they were elected to enact then they - potentially - *might* face recall/reelection IF their constituents to do not support them.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:48 UTC

I’m not saying that “loyalty to the party should be an overriding factor in their decision-making”. It would really help if you responded to what i said instead of sneering at me.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:47 UTC

No I’m not saying that. I’m pointing out how FPTP works.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:43 UTC

I am entirely talking about voting for the individual and them as the representative of their constituents. Sneering at this is a pretty weak challenge to the point.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:41 UTC

Again i’m not doing away with constituents voting for an individual. It’s entirely in line with FPTP.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:40 UTC

FPTP is very much based on the majority. That’s pretty fundamental to the system.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:40 UTC

“If you win 51-49, in our current system, you kinda should be defying your party almost half of the time.” This is not how FPTP is envisaged to work, does work or could ever work. You’re really making stuff up now.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:31 UTC

I’m not saying that MPs are unable to switch. But I don’t know why you keep repeating the idea that representing the constituency is paramount while arguing against giving the constituents a further opportunity to potentially recall them if they no longer represent the party on the ballot paper.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:28 UTC

And it’s that constituency that determines if they get replaced. And it’s nonsense to say they can’t stand for a party and constituency at the same time. Most take a party whip and do exactly that. Which was obvious from the ballot paper that elected them.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:16 UTC

The jobs aren’t contingent on that. But having stood for a particular party and its manifesto, and won on that basis, constituents have the opportunity to potentially replace them if what they are doing isn’t seen to represent them.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:07 UTC

Nothing i am suggesting undermines the idea of electing MPs as local representatives though.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:07 UTC

Nothing i am suggesting undermines the idea that we have a representative democracy. And the way people vote is massively tied up with the principals and stated aims of the parties that the candidates openly sign up for and have written on the ballot paper.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 18:05 UTC

The history is a huge guide to the shape and nature of political parties.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 17:58 UTC

If it technically solves that particular problem I have no idea why you are arguing with me.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 17:58 UTC

Yes I am, and i don’t think that’s such a weird claim. Parties have structures, history and memberships that define the principals they’ll govern with. An individual signing up to that gives me a better idea of where they stand on issues than meeting them and trying to figure out if they mean it.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 17:53 UTC

It would solve the problem of an MP changing party allegiance against the wishes of their constituents. Because the constituents could now do something about it.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 17:50 UTC

It’s not the same problem at all. No-one expects a political party to follow through on their manifesto if circumstances change. But they have voted for an MP signed up to the values/organisation of a party that they think best (or least worst) equipped to deal with changing circumstances.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 17:48 UTC

“have to”? I don’t buy that for a second. I’m only saying it should happen when MPs leave the party they were elected under.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 17:45 UTC

On what basis? The 10% recall petition currently only applies in specific circumstances. I’m suggesting extending that to MPs that leave the party they were elected under.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 17:39 UTC

Yes! That’s the point. If the MPs abandon the party over it or get sacked there’s a chance of a by-election if there constituency demands it. This seems like a good thing, and very much in line with the FPTP model we have of constituency MPs.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 17:31 UTC

Only *if* parties abandoned their manifestos to the extent that many of their MPs jump ship or get sacked. At which point giving the public to chance to respond via by-elections strikes me as good thing.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 17:22 UTC

They may have good reasons to abandon it. Reasons supported by their constituents. In which case they can probably survive the threat of a recall petition or even a by election.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 17:21 UTC

We frequently vote for people attached to that manifesto and the organisation that drew it up. If they want to abandon either, then it makes to have the _potential_ to recall them.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 16:57 UTC

If the party changed mid-term - then it would be very useful to back an MP at the ballot box who left the party over it.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 16:35 UTC

And part of everyone’s decision in an election is the agenda they’ve signed up based on the political party they are a member of and which is funding their campaign. It seems entirely in line with voting for an MP to have the _potential_ to recall them if they abandon that agenda.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 16:33 UTC

I am voting based on my MP. I’m not voting based on whether i have sufficient insight to spot whether they’re inclined to change their mind at some point and break ranks with the agenda they are standing on.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 15:46 UTC

At which point the existing system of recall seems appropriate. If they enjoy the backing of their voters on their stance they have little to fear.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 15:44 UTC

Whereas if they are voting for someone because they broadly support the agenda the candidate stands for - or if they do not wish to be represented by a rival agenda they do not support then it seems reasonable that if they decide to abandon that platform they *might* face recall.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 15:41 UTC

It’s not the “whole point” of a campaign is it? People aren’t trying to work out if the candidate standing on a party ticket might one day leave and it’s expecting a huge level of insight on the electorate to make that judgement call on a person they’re unlikely to meet.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 14:39 UTC

Whereas a system that allows their electorate to *endorse* their stance seems to be one that provides them with even more leverage.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 14:39 UTC

Again, more leverage isn’t necessarily a good thing. Especially if it’s to take a stand that their electorate would never have endorsed on election day.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 14:16 UTC

Potentially. But i don’t think acting on one conscience is necessarily a good thing. An MP elected to defend gay marriage who - after election - realises this is, to them, sinful should face their electorate again.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 14:07 UTC

If they are trying to purge individual MPs who are successfully representing their constituencies - I don’t think relying on a petition and by-election in that constituency is going to work.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 14:05 UTC

I don’t see a problem with this, and i don’t think it hands the PM power to purge his party as is being suggested here.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 14:02 UTC

Indeed. But i responded to say there is an existing process to recall MPs and they i don’t think it undermines FPTP if this applies should any MP leave the party they were elected under.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 13:04 UTC

No they couldn’t. The bye-election would be triggered by 10% of the constituency wanting to recall the MP who leaves the party they were voted under. They could then be re-elected.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 13:01 UTC

This doesn’t follow at all. if the MP was elected because of their individual viewpoints and their party kicked them out they would only face a bye-election if sufficient signatures were gathered *and* their constituents decided they didn’t want to reelect them.

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Al @movietrubs.bsky.social [ View ] Jul 10, 2024 at 12:00 UTC

I think there is an existing process for recalling MPs if there are enough signature following, say, a criminal offence. I think it world entirely be within the existing system to extend that to cover MPs changing the party affiliation they won under.

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