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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Arguably the laziest, most consumeristic form of religion imaginable.
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Stephen@spropps.bsky.social |
15 followers 52 following 209 posts
Former Christian exploring history, philosophy, and politics. Amateur natural photography.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Arguably the laziest, most consumeristic form of religion imaginable.
1 replies 0 reposts 2 likes
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I notice the kinder expressions of Christianity are also the more reliant on non-literal interpretation and mysticism. Everything, especially Jesus’ own statements of punishment, must be symbolized away for the vision to remain consistent. It’s a lot of work.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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For sure, it’s absolutely true. The problem is the framing. They paint it as evil — I paint it as freedom. This framing problem is irresolvable; it must be arrived at individually and organically. And we largely don’t decide if and when a shift happens. I think it’s dispositional or triggered.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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It’s no surprise the various Gnostic sects viewed the god of the OT as a malevolent, lesser deity. They reasoned surely an actually good god wouldn’t have made the world we find ourselves in nor we he have done all that whacky shit we read about.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I can remember from a pretty young age having a keen fear of atheism specifically. That was right after 9/11 and the New Atheism came to public attention. But rather than test my fear, my dogmatism became a shield. It was an unhealthy way to think, but it was driven by “touch and you die.”
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Because if I don’t tell them the gruesome details of what Jesus did for them, he’ll hold me accountable for them not getting saved. Duh!
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Oh man, every time I interact with a Christian friend I’m hyper aware of what I can’t say for fear of upsetting the apple cart. You’re right, they don’t know how to handle things outside the bubble and it’s scary.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Depends on how you rank it, I guess. The theology of the cross is kind of the marketing pitch. But, yeah, problems with the doctrine of God and theodicy are more foundational. Certainly for me.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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That’s right, you have to adopt an external perspective. When I was Reformed, PSA was all there was — God punishing the Son to satisfy his wrath. But there’s a whole ton of ways to think about it. But mention that in church and you might have an elders’ meeting.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I like the analogy. The lack of cohesion and lack of intelligibility on the core message are major problems. Ask any number of Christians what atonement actually is/does and see the number of responses. If you can’t agree on the main doctrine, what good is it?
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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One thing I’ve learned, studying along similar lines, is the boundaries between ideas and terms are rather blurry. All you can do is try to decide for yourself. But I think that’s maturity.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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John Wesley was Moravian adjacent, and he had some success in the American South. Not sure if that counts.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Of course, these days, by atheist I mean Nietzsche and Schopenhauer. You know, the real stuff lol
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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It’s what many of their laity are probably doing, especially young people. It certainly doesn’t hurt to be conversant as opposed to suspicion and abuse.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Yeah I was in a bubble of fear mongering until my mid twenties. Once I began interacting with atheism I thought, man this makes more sense. At the very least, my concepts had to change. I try to encourage believers I interact with to read atheist material just to expand their thinking.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Was that, for you, the start of the avalanche, or did you just double down for a few more years?
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I get that. As much flak as new atheism receives, I think your reaction reflects the intended effect.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Didn’t realize Sam Harris was an evangelical 😉
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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That sums up my interaction exactly.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I agree, they can’t see that for sure. What it took me so long to see was the flip side. It is impossible to reason with those still in. There is no open conversation to be had; it’s all a foregone conclusion. The discussion is over before it starts, so why bother at all?
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Oh it’s crazy. It wasn’t until I fully got out that I finally saw how nearly all their efforts are to protect economic interests. The entire evangelical and Reformed world is a giant grift. Propped up speakers, endless books and conferences, a constant stream of content to make money off the silo.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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All of it is challenging to overcome. We’ve all had to claw our way to new ways of thinking.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I was told my whole life, “you don’t need to read that stuff, all you need is the Bible.” I was told just a couple weeks ago by a former pastor that I have been taken captive by philosophies of men. Arrogance is right, but only the kind that comes from self assured anti-intellectualism.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Right, they got fat off the spoils of war and thought that’s the way life ought to be. We are the God-blessed and that’s why we’re prosperous. I believed it for a time myself.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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All the men in my family that are all-in on the church stuff are emotionally immature and rationally stunted. A major portion of it is pride because they have all the Answers, but the rest of it is fear born out of ignorance.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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It’s only the advancements of social ideas that allows them to make this argument in the first place. The trad movement is a complete luxury position.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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But poor folks and peasants have never had the luxury to follow the Lord in such a way. Good luck not starving if only one spouse is harvesting grain while the other sits at home. There seems to an underlying assumption if these folks were born in the past, they’d be just as privileged.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I saw somewhere his mom is an accomplished physicist, so certainly she didn’t abide by the trad rules. All of it revolves around a super naive view of the past. The return isn’t to some “biblical model,” it’s to the middle class 1950s or to the landed gentry a century prior.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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They fear what they can’t understand or control, so they attack it. The world must be one way and everyone must conform to it. Nothing else makes sense because that would cause doubt the religion is the only truth.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Yep. My old pastor was in town recently and invited me to breakfast. I was reluctant to go because I knew where the conversation would go. It turned into an email exchange and I realized, he isn’t going to change his mind so why bother? I’m totally on defense against a foregone conclusion.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Oof, yes. I learned this early on a child. As I got older I realized these folks were unhinged to get so upset about such trivial things like rock music, movies, a book, or someone’s clothes.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I think you’re right. Every evangelical leader has strong political ties. It’s all about making society in their image through power.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Right, well Chuck Colson said, or John MacArthur said, or…etc
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Man, evangelicals really screwed up by trading metaphysics for biblicism. It may have killed their whole project in America. Yeah, keep trying to use science to prove the Bible. Bold strategy.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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“I’m gonna need chapter and verse for that one, buddy!”
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Pretty nuts how deep Creed’s Christian cred seeped into the culture. I remember it being a controversy in church (in the youth group, of course) and in public school. I lively debate broke out in my sixth grade music class over this topic. Our teacher just looked around for some means to exit life.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I saw one of these… things in person yesterday. My wife and I both made the same sound of disgust at the sight of it.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Also, is Creed more hated than Nickelback?
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I still occasionally listen to Human Clay; it was a solid album. I’ve been a fan of Alter Bridge since 2005 and followed Tremonti’s solo projects. I think a part of the issue is Stapp being just a strange dude sometimes and his continual attempts at relevance.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Aurora. In Arkansas. Never thought I’d see such a thing.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Yes, this is it exactly. On this view, there can never be a definite article only a process of ever new discovery.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I think that’s right. Most of the time life happens to us and we’re along for the ride. This is why I tend to see truth as a horizon we can only approach. Everything we think is tentative and open to new information.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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That helps me be charitable to those who rely on such experiences. It also helps me remain open to future occurrences. I’ve had a couple, why wouldn’t I have more? But I’m interested to find them in safer environments where I know there’s less pressure to conform.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Coming out of that, I know I certainly lacked the mental frameworks and vocabulary to think on experiences.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I agree. I think it’s wise to be critical of our experiences and charitable towards those of others. I also think our shared background tradition makes it hard for us to navigate some of this. Reformed theology is very nominalist and iconoclastic and, as such, denies mystical experience.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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Yeah I just vomited my initial gut response on your feed lol. And I agree, I’ve definitely seen some manufactured emotion in church before (long before I became reformed, of course). I tend to treat people’s experiences as real. And I would take their report of it as genuine. Factual or not? Eh…
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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I think it’s reasonable for people trust their experiences. If music or iconography was involved in the circumstance, I don’t see what difference it makes. I may not agree with their interpretation, but I don’t fault them for believing it was God. The experience was real and that’s what matters.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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However, I will say that in much evangelical worship, it seems like much of it is designed to manufacture a response and that can be misleading. In fact, much of it is commercialized for this reason. But that’s the danger of making emotion the point, rather than one of many aids or tools.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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People have mystical encounters in a monks cell, during a high liturgy service, or walking on a trail. Some are had in moments of crises; others in moments of happiness. It’s reasonable to me that we as physical beings would use images, incense, and music to aid us in a spiritual practice.
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Stephen
@spropps.bsky.social
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There’s probably more to this quote, but I’m not sure I agree with it. Religious experience is one of the most ubiquitous experiences in humanity, which I think is behind what I would consider genuine faith. I also don’t understand how pomp and music would render such experiences fake.
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