I think stories should explore both sides of this more frequently.
It feels like the cliché is represented as so critical that the choice’ll define the development or like a sudden, callous move. But it’s always about the character’s psyche and not the impact on those around.
I don't even think it's that bad for a hero to have hang ups about killing the villain. I just think it's a little silly that the hero usually elects to take this one moral high ground, while standing atop a hill of lesser villains and mooks who were somehow totally fine to kill.
I would love for someone to pull out that line just to have their friend who's been fighting along side them say "no it doesn't" and kill the villain immediately
From Fairysia Academy, ch. 18
"Aren't we better than her, though?" Ayumi asked.
Laura shook her head. "Yes, we are. Haven't you ever noticed, though? This 'don't kill the villain' bullshit is nonsense pseudo-morality pushed by oppressors which very conveniently lets them keep oppressing. [...]"
Like there's definitely a grain of truth in it, but mass market kids media really lacks the nuance to go "but sometimes people come around that create so much untold suffering and the only effective way to stop them is to make them physically incapable (and sometimes even that's not enough)
Batman 1966: Actually, killing the Joker makes me just as bad as him.
[Several million Joker-committed murders later]
Batman 2024: Actually, killing the Joker makes me just as bad as him.
[Several million Joker-committed murders later]
Batman 3099: Actually, deleting Jokerbot999-
Killing the villain has a hypothesis and supporting evidence that is how humans self-domesticated. Groups of humans cooperated to eliminate the bullies and villains who dominated them, making those who had genes to be more cooperative more likely to reproduce. Over time we became social animals.
Unironically, literal fascist propaganda and no: I do not want Killer the Torturer to die a clean poetic death either, he should pay for what he did in life maybe?
It was meant to be a lesson for children that violence is wrong.
Yet the best thing I ever did to finally get me freedom from relentless bullying was when I fought back harder.
There are individual instances where you can play mind chess with an opponent and punish them way worse by making them live with the shame of defeat.
However, there are many MORE instances where killing the villain is undoubtedly a net good.
Compassion is needed to be human, but not at the expense of ourselves or others. Gotta love life enough to know when something is more important than adherence to your morals. I love when media shows us some nuance here. Basically "Gods grant me the strength to kill those I cannot sway to goodness."
It depends on how the story / the character is written.
I'm working on three stories and the characters don't have the same motivations or reasons. The bad guys don't have the same level of threat.
In one story, the heroes kill the villains, in another one, they feel horrible after killing one.
One thing the Star Wars prequels got right was Windu trying to kill fascist Palpatine bc a trial would have been impossible and Anakin stepping in got Windu triple killed.
That was a lot better than the ending of Glass Onion where then magically everyone changed their minds.
I'm all for - if the villain is that bad, the only way to stop them is end them, then end them. Quickly, mercilessly, completely, and make sure the job is done.
The lesson of "killing me, the evil murderous villain, would make you just as bad as me" also usually came right after the heroes murdered their way through the villains low rung mooks, whose lives presumably mattered not at all in the equation.
One of my favorite endings to a video game is the original Far Cry. After battling through hordes of weird mutants, you end up alone with the nebbish scientist bad guy. He says his work is the future and you can't stop the future.
"Maybe, but I can make sure you aren't in it."
BANG
It's extra stupid when the hero kills every hired mook between him and the boss, but for some reason killing the worst guy there is the only one that counts.
I feel like part of the damage has been people going to be the opposite extreme and not considering WHY killing bad guys might not always be a good idea and you end up with super angry performative twitter tankies
So many tumblr posts that refuse to accept that some people can't be rehabilitated. Or they come close, then are horribly shocked/appalled that people won't be nice to rapists, fascists, etc.
I think it's partially an offshoot of "you can't kill the villain no matter what".
As with most difficult subjects in life, I defer to the wisdom of Star Trek, in particular to TOS S3 E22 "The Savage Curtain" (1969).
In that episode, Kirk and Spock are coerced by aliens into joining clones of Abe Lincoln and Vulcan Jesus in battle against 4 cloned villains.
(cont)
"Why didn't killing all the henchmen it took me to get here in the first place make me just as bad as him?"
"Uh, because they were ENLISTED? Obviously? The sanctity of life only applies to the officer classes."
It's a tired cliché, and one that doesn't make any sense.
Motivation, morality, and outlook set villains and heroes apart, and if a truly terrible villain needs to be stopped, then a stern talking to and locking them up isn't going to do it.
The hero doesn't have to feel good about doing it though
In my stories of late, I have specifically written out villain after villain getting killed and my MC/narrator(an alternate isekaied version of myself) saying “I have no choice but to do this. I refuse to enjoy it.” before helping kill a villain. Screw the trope, it’s bullshit.
"Deserves it? I dare say he does! Many who live deserve death, and many who have died deserve life. But can you give that to them? Then do not be so hasty to give out death in judgment. For not even the very wise can see all ends, and I fear that the pity of Bilbo may come to rule the fate of many."
Sometime not killing the villain makes one responsible for any later victims. When you catch someone mid-break-in to your house, slay, don't injure. Saves paperwork and doesn't waste jail space or resources.
While we're at it, can we get rid of the villian redemption arc *and* the tragic backstories? Let villains be villains.
But I get it, some folks want reassurance that if *they* do bad things that they'll be forgiven. It wasn't their fault, etc.
One thing I learned recently, particularly in kids shows, is a lot of this trope stems from S&P refusing to allow the protagonist to exercise any "negative" behavior. So in effect it's sort of impressed on writers and audiences at a young age.
Yeah it sucks.
It's ironic that we had that message drilled into us, and the shadow of World War II where we had to kill a whole bunch of villains, and those same people were called the greatest generation.
i feel like that trope was invented by writers as a cop-out to keep tv/book/comic/movie sequels coming so its great that its been taken as a moral imperative?
media literacy and its effects
The only character who has this trope that I like is Vash the Stampede, and that's because it's presented more as a psychological compulsion and even FLAW than it is a universal good, with a lot of the cast outright saying his beliefs are childish and bullshit and challenging him on them.
An Eye for an Eyes and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless. we have a slow system of checks balances and due process. We just have to traus the process and hope it serves us well in a civilized society.
I know it's hip to shit on the CW, but I really enjoyed the multi season switches on Arrow to how he felt, he killed a long time then felt bad about it, reasoned he could smile more and just irreparably break ankles, went back to killin'...
where in society do people foolishly beat bad guys senseless but stop short of killing them? because in this framework, the only people you could possibly be talking about are cops
Revenge fantasy films are the only place where that's suspended. And rarely for good reason. It's one of the really refreshing things about Monkey Man. "Dig two graves? No I'm gonna kill a lot more than two people"
“Many that live deserve death and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo?”
Yes, actually, Mithrandir. That’s why I have this sword that glows blue when fuckers who deserve to die are close by. Also I have a magic ring so they can’t see me when it’s stabby-times.
Eh, I turned Caesar into minced meat so much in Fallout NV and still haven't become a fascist dictator who treats women like livestock and is full of himself because he read one philosopher and didn't even understand what he read.
To be fair though, if you can somehow get the villain down so low that they can never possibly recover is pretty dang cathartic.
But yeah, some villains deserve death, especially IRL ones.
